MM: Tom, you still haven't cited evidence that Jesus revealed all we need to know about God while He was here in the flesh. Citing what He said about the future destruction of Jerusalem does not cut it. Besides, His description of that event was minimal, neither did it include an explanation of how God punishes and destroys impenitent sinners. You are relying on Sister White to fill in the details. No where in the Bible, or in the words of Jesus, are these details described.

Originally you asked me to prove from Jesus' own actions what I've been sharing about the wrath of God. But Jesus did not come here to explain or demonstrate everything there is to know about God. So, not even you can prove your theory based solely on what Jesus did, or even on what He said about it. We are both indebted to the rest of the Bible and the SOP to understand, as much as it is possible, how and why God punishes and destroys sinners.

TE: I've never met anyone more dependent upon the SOP than you. When I ask you to cite somewhere in Scripture to support some viewpoint that you have, more times than not you site the SOP. When I point out that this is not Scripture, you complain. You say, "You don't believe that what Sister White wrote is in harmony with Scripture?"

You're completely using a double standard here. One for yourself, and another for others. If you wish to have a discussion based only on Scripture, you can open a thread for that, and we can do so. But to be as highly dependent upon the SOP as you are, and then complain when someone cites her to you, is completely unreasonable.
Again, you're free to believe what you wish. There's no way I can prove to you something is true that you do not wish to believe. We are told that "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." I believe this is true. I believe her also when she writes that the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was "the revelation of God."

8T 285, 286
Man cannot by searching find out God. Let none seek with presumptuous hand to lift the veil that conceals His glory. "Unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" Romans 11:33. It is a proof of His mercy that there is the hiding of His power; for to lift the veil that conceals the divine presence is death. No mortal mind can penetrate the secrecy in which the Mighty One dwells and works. Only that which He sees fit to reveal can we comprehend of Him. Reason must acknowledge an authority superior to itself. Heart and intellect must bow to the great I AM. {8T 285.2}

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. {8T 286.2}

Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of men, and yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was a stranger and sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from sin. {8T 286.3}

ED 169
No finite mind can fully comprehend the character or the works of the Infinite One. We cannot by searching find out God. To minds the strongest and most highly cultured, as well as to the weakest and most ignorant, that holy Being must remain clothed in mystery. But though "clouds and darkness are round about Him: righteousness and judgment are the foundation of His throne." Psalm 97:2, R.V. We can so far comprehend His dealing with us as to discern boundless mercy united to infinite power. We can understand as much of His purposes as we are capable of comprehending; beyond this we may still trust the hand that is omnipotent, the heart that is full of love. {Ed 169.1}

GC 527
Yet the finite minds of men are inadequate fully to comprehend the plans and purposes of the Infinite One. We can never by searching find out God. We must not attempt to lift with presumptuous hand the curtain behind which He veils His majesty. The apostle exclaims: "How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" Romans 11:33. We can so far comprehend His dealings with us, and the motives by which He is actuated, that we may discern boundless love and mercy united to infinite power. Our Father in heaven orders everything in wisdom and righteousness, and we are not to be dissatisfied and distrustful, but to bow in reverent submission. He will reveal to us as much of His purposes as it is for our good to know, and beyond that we must trust the Hand that is omnipotent, the Heart that is full of love. {GC 527.1}

MM 95
Human talents and human conjecture have tried by searching to find out God. Many have trodden this pathway. The highest intellect may tax itself until it is wearied out, in conjectures regarding God, but the effort will be fruitless, and the fact will remain that man by searching cannot find out God. This problem has not been given us to solve. All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son, the Great Teacher. As we learn more and more of what man is, of what we ourselves are, in God's sight, we shall fear and tremble before Him. {MM 95.2}

Regarding the fire that went out from the Lord, God is often attributed as doing that which He permits.

1.I've already commented on Korah.

2.Regarding holy and Satanic angels: “The above two quotes demonstrate that both evil angels and holy angels will be at work during the outpouring of the 7LPs.”

Yes, they are both at work, but not doing the same thing! They are not going along together hand in hand wreaking destruction upon the wicked.

3.Regarding the following: “Tom, your view assumes Satan cooperates with God to do things that are calculated to lead people to “tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty.” Why would Satan do such a thing?”

Satan doesn't do what he does for this purpose, but this is the purpose it has, because God is able to work the things which Satan does for His purposes. Satan's purpose is to destroy, and then blame God for it, as explained here:

“Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.(GC 36)


But God works Satan's destructive acts to His purpose, which is to demonstrate the righteousness of His law.

4.Regarding the volcano that destroyed the cities on the plain, she wrote, "Suddenly and unexpectedly as would be a thunder peal from an unclouded sky, the tempest broke." This simply says what happened was unexpected. She's not saying that God worked magic to make fire and brimstone appear from nothing to destroy these cities.

5.Regarding why Satan would wreak havoc upon the Egyptians, it's for the same reason described in GC 36. He wants people to fear God rather than love Him. So when God withdraws His Spirit, Satan takes action and seeks to conceal his own actions by blaming what he does upon God. This still happens today. When things like Katrina happen, people blame God. Basically Satan wants to make God look bad.

It really doesn't matter then, you see, if God causes things to happen that result in people dying or if He simply stops preventing it from happening.

Either way He is culpable.

It is within His power to prevent it, therefore, He has a duty to act.

Another example is, if a dam is about to break and it is within the dam operators power to prevent it, he is guilt of murder if the towns folk die in the flood that result because he chose not to prevent it. This is similar to the Flood that killed the antediluvians, right?

Tell me, Tom, do you attribute this act of judgment to Satan?

MM: Another example is, if a dam is about to break and it is within the dam operators power to prevent it, he is guilt of murder if the towns folk die in the flood that result because he chose not to prevent it. This is similar to the Flood that killed the antediluvians, right?

TE: It would be more similar if in the example of the dam, the towns folk did everything in their power to make the dam operators leave, and finally forced them out, thus bringing destruction upon themselves.

Leviticus
10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

MM: Tell me, Tom, do you attribute this act of judgment to Satan?

TE: Indirectly all death is attributed to Satan. Satan is the author of sin and all its results, including death. Directly I would attribute it to the two who were killed. I'm not going to get involved in dealing with a possible explanation to every act of violence the Bible attributes to God. From the principles I enunciated, one can easily come up with possible scenarios. I'll discuss the principles involved with you, however.

Leviticus
16:31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that [was] under them:
16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that [appertained] unto Korah, and all [their] goods.
16:33 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
16:34 And all Israel that [were] round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up [also].
16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
16:44 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
16:45 Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces.
16:46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.
16:47 And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people.
16:48 And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed.
16:49 Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah.
16:50 And Aaron returned unto Moses unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the plague was stayed.

PP 400 & 404
In the name of the God of Israel, Moses now declared, in the hearing of the congregation: "Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men, then the Lord hath not sent me. But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit, then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord." {PP 400.4}

The eyes of all Israel were fixed upon Moses as they stood, in terror and expectation, awaiting the event. As he ceased speaking, the solid earth parted, and the rebels went down alive into the pit, with all that pertained to them, and "they perished from among the congregation." The people fled, self-condemned as partakers in the sin. {PP 400.5}

But the judgments were not ended. Fire flashing from the cloud consumed the two hundred and fifty princes who had offered incense. These men, not being the first in rebellion, were not destroyed with the chief conspirators. They were permitted to see their end, and to have an opportunity for repentance; but their sympathies were with the rebels, and they shared their fate. {PP 401.1}

Korah would not have taken the course he did had he known that all the directions and reproofs communicated to Israel were from God. But he might have known this. God had given overwhelming evidence that He was leading Israel. But Korah and his companions rejected light until they became so blinded that the most striking manifestations of His power were not sufficient to convince them; they attributed them all to human or satanic agency. The same thing was done by the people, who the day after the destruction of Korah and his company came to Moses and Aaron, saying, "Ye have killed the people of the Lord." Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom. They had committed the sin against the Holy Spirit, a sin by which man's heart is effectually hardened against the influence of divine grace. "Whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man," said Christ, "it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him." Matthew 12:32. These words were spoken by our Saviour when the gracious works which He had performed through the power of God were attributed by the Jews to Beelzebub. It is through the agency of the Holy Spirit that God communicates with man; and those who deliberately reject this agency as satanic, have cut off the channel of communication between the soul and Heaven. {PP 404.4}

But your modification of my example destroys the point I am trying to make, namely, the flood occurred because the dam operator chose not to prevent it. This is what you've been saying about God. You believe God is unnaturally preventing nature from imploding upon itself and killing us in the process.

This is in opposition to the idea that God employs the forces of nature to cause the devastation that punishes and destroys sinners.

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. (GC 36)

Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom.

Tom, you believe God commissions holy angels to keep in check the fierce winds of human passions so as not to cause the great time of trouble prematurely, right? If so, then you believe God uses compelling force to prevent things from happening.