Nowhere does it say the wicked are "set on fire". Why do you keep insisting I've said such a thing? You are speculating on something God hasn't seen fit to explain. All we know is what we're told, which is - Fire from above and below will cause the wicked to suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness. These same two sources of fire will eventually burn up the waste and rubble on earth, including deceased sinners.


So, you do believe it is evil angels, not holy angels, who will pour out the 7LPs. Thank you for clearly answering my question.


That's barely a similarity, Tom, in the case of Jerusalem. There are more things about it that are dissimilar. The same thing is true of Job's case. God does not command angels to pour out the 7LPs on people to demonstrate the fact someone else is loyal to Him. So, why not stick with the examples Jesus cited - the Flood and the Fires of Sodom.


Many things are happening during the out pouring the 7LPs. In the same chapter, and next one, she goes on to describe it in detail. Never once does she attribute to evil angels the destruction that follows the pouring out of each plague. Instead, she depicts evil angels inflaming the fierce passions of sinners. That's it for the role evil angels play during the great time of trouble. God commands holy angels to use the 7LPs to destroys the rejectors of His grace and mercy. Here's how it is explained:


It makes no sense to say Satan wants to, or would, kill off the human race at the end of time. Instead, he wants to rally them on his side and fight to overthrow God. The last thing Satan wants to do is spend a thousand years with no one to tempt and harass.


You are echoing the voice quoted above - "The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them." Both the Bible and the SOP disagree with your assessment. "The LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought." (Deut 28:63) Obviously, Tom, you are not seeing things the way God sees them.

Tom, please address #99404 above on this thread. Thank you.

I was explaining what I believed. How can I leave key words out of what I believe? I wasn't citing a quote. I was expressing my own thoughts. If I were citing a quote, there would be quote marks and a reference.



Up to here is fine.



This is speculation.



This is just wrong. God has gone to great lengths to explain what you call "His 'strange acts'" to us. There is no reason for us not to understand them.






Jerusalem illustrates the points we've been discussing very well. It brings out the following:

1.The Jews forged their own fetters.
2.Their destruction came about as a result of their causing God to withdraw His protection.
3.God's love for Jerusalem is poignantly brought out by Jesus' lament.



These bring out that there is a danger involved in choosing one's own way, the wrong path. But in regards to the themes we have been discussing, I think Jerusalem is a better example. We have a lot more data to work with.



You certainly believe that God uses force to achieve His means. I understand you wouldn't use the word "torture" to describe engulfing people with fire and keeping the alive while they are punished, but inflicting people with pain to punish them is a definition of "torture." Avoiding the word "torture," you believe that God engulfs the unrighteous with literal fire, and punishes them with it for many hours or many days, and then kills them. This is accurate, isn't it?



No, I've been saying that God does not use force to compel the wicked. I've been saying that the wicked voluntarily choose to be excluded from heaven.



You're missing the point. First of all, if the scenario you believe were true, that would be using force as a means to achieve obedience. "Do what I say, or I will rain fire upon you to punish you for many hours or many days, and then kill you." This would be compelling force.

Secondly, you claimed that the only thing that stops the wicked from advancing upon the New Jerusalem is fire coming down from heaven. This would be force. But we are told that the rebellion would not be put down by force.



This is true. But the punishment is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. It is the direct result of their own choice. It is not by way of God burning them with literal fire. This is an absolutely hideous idea, and if there is one thing that comes from our discussions, I hope it is that you will see that God will not use literal fire to punish people. This is contrary to God's character in every way. For example:



God does not have the spirit of Satan. He has not disposition to hurt or destroy those who do not appreciate Him. His desire is to restore, to heal. But when the unrighteous have seen all there is to see, and still choose to be excluded from heaven, in respect for their free will, He has no choice but to give them what they desire.

He does not force their will, but agrees to their choice, although it causes Him indescribable grief to do so.



These should be considered along with other passages, such as DA 764 and GC 541-543.

There are two roads. One road is the road of life for the universe. It is based on receiving from God and giving to others. Another road is the road of selfishness, which is the road of death. God does all He can to warn us to stay off the death road and get on the life one. He won't force the will. If one choose the death road, then death will result, but not as a result of an arbitrary act of power on God's part. It will result because selfishness can do no other than result in death.

Just think about it. How can selfishness result in life? It can't. God doesn't need to take an arbitrary action to cause those who choose to live for self to die, because living for self could never result in life in the first place.

Tom, you still haven't cited evidence that Jesus revealed all we need to know about God while He was here in the flesh. Citing what He said about the future destruction of Jerusalem does not cut it. Besides, His description of that event was minimal, neither did it include an explanation of how God punishes and destroys impenitent sinners. You are relying on Sister White to fill in the details. No where in the Bible, or in the words of Jesus, are these details described.

Originally you asked me to prove from Jesus' own actions what I've been sharing about the wrath of God. But Jesus did not come here to explain or demonstrate everything there is to know about God. So, not even you can prove your theory based solely on what Jesus did, or even on what He said about it. We are both indebted to the rest of the Bible and the SOP to understand, as much as it is possible, how and why God punishes and destroys sinners.

That God has used literal fire to punish and destroy sinners is made clear in the OT and the SOP. The best example is the fire that proceeded from God and killed Aaron's sons.


Would you have us believe that the first fire was literal, but that the second fire was symbolic? Or, would have us believe the second fire came from Satan? Or, that God simply ceased holding it back, as if it were naturally waiting to do so?

Tom, consider the following inspired insights:


Would you have us believe the avenging, destroying angels of God symbolize evil angels? Do you dare us to attribute the judgments of God to Satan? The following passage should warn us against such a course:

Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom. They had committed the sin against the Holy Spirit, a sin by which man's heart is effectually hardened against the influence of divine grace. {PP 404.4}


The above two quotes demonstrate that both evil angels and holy angels will be at work during the outpouring of the 7LPs.


Tom, your view assumes Satan cooperates with God to do things that are calculated to lead people to “tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty.” Why would Satan do such a thing?


There was nothing “natural” about this fire. Brimstone and fire is not suspended in the sky. It does not exist naturally in the sky. Nor is it held back unnaturally by God from falling on the earth, as if it would fall were it not for the fact God is supernaturally preventing it. The fire that God used to destroy Sodom was rained down from above. Its origin cannot be traced or explained. It does not answer to natural law as we know it. It did not bubble up, like lava or tar, from beneath.


Again, in light of this passage, would you have us believe Satan cooperated with God in using fire and hail to destroy Egypt, which resulted in people fearing the manifestation of God’s power, and believing “the earth is under the control of the living God, that the elements obey His voice, and that the only safety is in obedience to Him”? Why would Satan do such a thing?

Tom, please address #99444 above. Thank you.

Because you said they would be in flames. Do you disagree with this? They won't be in flames?



Given this is the case, how could they not be set on fire? Human beings aren't composed of fire retardant material. If the same fire burns up the waste on rubble on earth, how could it not burn up humans?



Read more carefully! In the underlined portion, the "they" refers to the holy angels, not the evil ones. The holy angels pour out the last plagues, as I explained.



We're talking about the seven last plagues here. You're mixing stuff up here. Jesus does not give the flood and fires of Sodom as an example of the 7LPs.

This is from the first chapter of The Great Controversy:



The destruction of Jerusalem is similar to the 7LP's.



You then quoted several paragraphs that didn't address this at all.



Satan does what he always does. Satan destroys. He is the destroyer. That's his character. He destroys and then blames God for it. Unfortunately, he fools many people.



I quoted this at length above, so abbreviated it here. It's clear that the same principle is at work in both the destruction of Jerusalem and the last plagues.

I have no idea why you would want to defend a position that makes God look so bad! Why do you wish to have God portrayed as one who does the terrible things described in the plagues? Maiming, inflicting people with terrible diseases, burning people alive with fire. How can you think God is capable of treating beings like this?



I think you are looking at things in a very superficial way. Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." This means that God is like Jesus, not totally unlike Him.

God does not have the power to relieve the wicked of the punishment by fire. How could He do so? God is Himself the consuming fire being spoken of. Should He hide in a corner and let the wicked loose? There's nothing He can do.



Here is the principle that needs to be understood:



The same thing which gives life to the righteous will slay the wicked. Who gives life to the righteous? Jesus Christ. How are the wicked slain? As explained in the GC quote, they cannot bear the revelation of God's character. God is as a consuming fire to them. They voluntarily choose to be excluded from heaven.

The two overriding problems I see in your interpretation of things are:

1.You do not recognize that the sufferings of the wicked are brought upon themselves by their own actions. They suffer as a consequence of their own decisions, not because God does something to them. (this is made very clear in DA 764).

2.You believe God to be capable of doing things that only a terrible being like Hitler or Satan would be capable of doing.

Regarding 2, there is no need to interpret Scripture or the SOP in such a way. We have ample evidence of what God is like in the person of Jesus Christ. I do not understand how you can consider the life of Jesus Christ, who went about "doing good," and think God capable or committing the acts of cruelty you ascribe to Him.

What advantage is there to looking at things the way you suggest? How is God a better Person for acting the way you suggest as opposed to the way I'm suggesting?

Here's the evidence:



I've presented this many times. If you choose not to believe this is true, I can't force you to believe otherwise.



I've never met anyone more dependent upon the SOP than you. When I ask you to cite somewhere in Scripture to support some viewpoint that you have, more times than not you site the SOP. When I point out that this is not Scripture, you complain. You say, "You don't believe that what Sister White wrote is in harmony with Scripture?"

You're completely using a double standard here. One for yourself, and another for others. If you wish to have a discussion based only on Scripture, you can open a thread for that, and we can do so. But to be as highly dependent upon the SOP as you are, and then complain when someone cites her to you, is completely unreasonable.



Again, you're free to believe what you wish. There's no way I can prove to you something is true that you do not wish to believe. We are told that "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." I believe this is true. I believe her also when she writes that the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was "the revelation of God."

The first chapter of The Desire of Ages explains this wonderfully. The book of John also is permeated by this theme.

Regarding the fire that went out from the Lord, God is often attributed as doing that which He permits.

Regarding a fire being symbolic or literal, when a vision is presented, God uses symbols. Something being presented could be either literal or symbolic. One needs to consider many things to interpret a dream or vision. Even for the one receiving the vision, this was not an easy thing to do. This is easy to see in Daniel. Also Peter remarks that those who received visions and dreams longed to understand what they themselves had seen.

Regarding #99464

1.I've already commented on Korah.
2.Regarding holy and Satanic angels:



Yes, they are both at work, but not doing the same thing! They are not going along together hand in hand wreaking destruction upon the wicked.

3.Regarding the following:



Satan doesn't do what he does for this purpose, but this is the purpose it has, because God is able to work the things which Satan does for His purposes. Satan's purpose is to destroy, and then blame God for it, as explained here:



But God works Satan's destructive acts to His purpose, which is to demonstrate the righteousness of His law.

4.Regarding the volcano that destroyed the cities on the plain, she wrote, "Suddenly and unexpectedly as would be a thunder peal from an unclouded sky, the tempest broke." This simply says what happened was unexpected. She's not saying that God worked magic to make fire and brimstone appear from nothing to destroy these cities.

5.Regarding why Satan would wreak havoc upon the Egyptians, it's for the same reason described in GC 36. He wants people to fear God rather than love Him. So when God withdraws His Spirit, Satan takes action and seeks to conceal his own actions by blaming what he does upon God.

This still happens today. When things like Katrina happen, people blame God.

Basically Satan wants to make God look bad.

Indeed, how not!!! Which is something God has not seen fit to fully explain. Obviously there are things about it we will not understand until it is fulfilled. Otherwise, God would have spelled out all the details. So, I would appreciate it if you would stop saying I believe God will engulf sinners with flames.


But don’t you really mean the holy angels pour out the 7LPs by not preventing the evil angels from doing it?


Did Jesus make this parallel application? Or, is that something Sister White did? I agree with her, of course, but did Jesus express it, too? Here is what Jesus did say about it:

Luke
17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

You wrote, “Jesus does not give the flood and fires of Sodom as an example of the 7LPs.” What, then, is Jesus talking about? Is He here referring to His third coming, after the Millennium?


Why, then, doesn’t he destroy all of them? Instead, he deceives the wicked into believing he is Jesus, that he changed the Sabbath, that they need to kill off SDAs in an effort to assuage the wrath of God. It has always been his goal to manipulate the human race to serve his purposes – to overthrow God, or to at least put Him in a position where He cannot justifiably eliminate him in the lake of fire.


No, the principles are not the “same”. There are more dissimilarities than there are similarities. For example, Jesus will not order the holy angels to withdraw and give evil angels permission to use human armies to destroy the wicked using the plagues to do so.


Yes, there is something He could do. First, He could choose not to resurrect them. Second, He could choose to continue doing what He has been doing these last 6,000 years. Third, He could do what you have been suggesting, namely, let sin destroy them. Fourth, He could let them destroy themselves. And I’m sure there are other options; but, no, He will take matters into His own hands. He will not leave it to sin, self, or Satan to do it properly.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them." Both the Bible and the SOP disagree with your assessment. "The LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought." (Deut 28:63) Obviously, Tom, you are not seeing things the way God sees them. Even holy angels rejoice that the wicked are receiving what they deserve during the 7LPs.


Tom, I do believe the wicked will reap what they have sown in the lake of fire. There is nothing arbitrary about it. God has spelled it out clearly. "By His word God has bound Himself to execute the penalty of the law on all transgressors. Again and again men commit sin, and yet they do not seem to believe that they must suffer the penalty for breaking the law (ST Sept. 5, 1892). {6BC 1095.4}