"Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom."

TE: The idea that Moses killed these men by using the powers of Satan is certainly a wicked thought.

MM: So who or what killed them? In the case of Korah and the 250 that died - Do you attribute God's judgments to Satan? Do you believe God withdrew His protection and gave Satan permission to kill them 1) by opening up the earth and 2) by sending fire from the divine glory in the cloud above the tabernacle?

PP 402
A manifestation of the divine glory was seen in the cloud above the tabernacle, and a voice from the cloud spoke to Moses and Aaron, "Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment." {PP 402.3}

The fire that killed the 250 priests came from divine glory within the cloud above the tabernacle. "Fire flashing from the cloud consumed the two hundred and fifty princes who had offered incense." This is the origin or source of the fire that killed the 250 priests. In other words, the fire came from the divine glory within the cloud above the tabernacle.

MM, I think the concepts I presented in the previous post can be applied to your questions here. There's over a thousand places in the Bible where violence is attributed to God. I don't see the point in going over these. If you wish to believe God acts violently to achieve His purposes, that's your prerogative. I've communicated what I believe previously.

There are 4 areas of discussion I can think of that we can discuss which are related to this question:

1.Christ's death.
2.The final destruction of the wicked.
3.The destruction of the wicked at Christ's second coming.
4.Other violent events in Scripture.

I know many people who agree with me in regards to how I see 1, 2, and 3. There are only a few people who agree with me regarding 4. Those who see 1, 2, or 3 differently than I do also see 4 differently. What I'm getting at that is that 1, 2, and 3 are stepping points to 4. As long as we disagree regarding 1, 2 and 3, there's no way we'll agree on 4.

Thank you, Tom, for plainly answering my questions. Based on your previous posts your answers are - Yes! Now that I know exactly what you believe, I guess we can lay this thread to rest - unless you have more you'd like to share.

This seems like a good place to stop. I hope your claim that "now I know exactly what you believe" will be born out by accurate representations of such in future posts.

I was very pleased with the insight I obtained regarding the "light of the glory of God," which I wouldn't have were it not for our conversation, so I appreciate your participation in our dialog.

Actually, Tom, I'm not as sure as I was after reading the following on the Polygamy thread:


In light of this new revelation how would you answer the following questions:

In the case of Korah and the 250 that died:

1. Do you attribute these judgments of God to Satan?

2. Do you believe God withdrew His protection and gave Satan permission to kill them A) by opening up the earth and B) by sending fire from the divine glory in the cloud above the tabernacle?

And then this question:

3. Of the hundreds of places in the Bible where it says God caused the death and destruction of sinners, which ones did God cause directly and which ones did God give evil angels permission to cause directly?

By "new revelation" I suppose you mean "new" in the sense that it's new to you? It's certainly not something I haven't said many times before.



I rather marvel that I keep saying the same things over and over again, and yet you somehow don't hear what I'm saying. Where are you getting the idea that I'm saying that God directly caused the death and destruction of sinners? I've said many times, probably hundreds, that the death and destruction of sinners comes as the result of the decisions and choices of evil beings.

Here's what I wrote:



Where in this did I say that God directly caused the death and destruction of sinners?

TE: Where in this did I say that God directly caused the death and destruction of sinners?

MM: Where did you not say it? You rarely spell out clearly what you believe. You rarely answer my questions directly. I usually have to pry it out of you.

For example, you wrote - "I don't believe every incident of death and destruction is due to evil angels. At least not directly. Indirectly Satan is responsible for all death and destruction since if it weren't for him, there wouldn't be any.'

What does this mean? If you don't believe every incident of death and destruction is "due to evil angels" who or what do you think caused the ones not caused by evil angels? You seem to think God didn't cause them. But it's still not clear to me what you believe about God causing them or not causing them. If Satan is indirectly responsible for all of them, what about God. Is He also indirectly responsible because He withdraws His protection? What about the sinners themselves? Are they also indirectly responsible?

In the case of Korah and the 250 that died:

1. Do you attribute these judgments of God to Satan?

2. Do you believe God withdrew His protection and gave Satan permission to kill them A) by opening up the earth and B) by sending fire from the divine glory in the cloud above the tabernacle?

And then this question:

3. Of the hundreds of places in the Bible where it says God caused the death and destruction of sinners, which ones did God cause directly and which ones did God give evil angels permission to cause directly?

I've been not saying this for hundreds and posts and several years? How can you ask such a question?



??? I've written hundreds of pages of posts spelling out very clearly what I believe.

In looking over this thread, the following posts are, in particular, good examples of my spelling out clearly what I believe:



It took me quite a long time to compile this list, so I hope you'll take a look it. I don't expect you to look at every one, that would be far too consuming, but perhaps you could look at 3 or 4 of them. For sure, please reread #99483.

Here's a portion of one that I'd like to bring to your attention:



This is from #97549, written on 3/31, a couple of months ago. I'm sure I've written it other times as well. Yet when I repeated it recently, you called it a "new revelation," something you didn't know I believed!

I get the impression sometimes you are not reading carefully. I find myself repeating the same things over and over again, and seeing the same questions asked again, without any evidence that you even read my response to them when asked previously. I can understand you're repeating a question that you think I haven't answered adequately; I'm not talking about this. I'm talking about repeating a question that you've already asked, which I've answered, with no evidence that you've even read what I wrote.

Another evidence of not reading carefully is to state things that you think I believe that I have never stated. If you slow down, and read carefully what is being said, I think you can avoid this.



In re-reading this thread, I see little evidence of this. When you ask questions with false premises, it makes it difficult, or impossible, to answer directly. For example, if I ask you a question like "have you stopped beating your wife?" this question cannot be answered directly.



I spelled this out in #99483.



No, not in the same way Satan is. Satan is indirectly responsible for all evil because he is the author of sin and all of it's results.



Yes, sometimes. Sometimes sinners are indirectly responsible because they cause God to withdraw His protection. Sometimes they are responsible because they take part in dangerous activities which cause themselves harm. Sometimes they are not responsible at all, like Job.



No.



In #98914 I wrote:



There's over a thousand places in the OT where violence is attributed to God. I discuss why in #99483. There's no point in going over all of these. I think it would be more beneficial to deal with certain key areas, such as the death of Christ, the judgment of the wicked, and the destruction of Jerusalem, as the same principles applied here are applicable for other cases, and we have much more data to deal with.

Tom, this insight creates more questions in my mind than it answers. In what way is Satan the author of my sins and yours? In what way is he the author of the results of our sinning? What results are you talking about? If Satan were dead and gone you and I would go on sinning, right? Who would you say is the author of our sins and their results? How does God’s withdrawing His protection fit in with these insights? What role does it play? Especially as it relates to the results?


In what way are we indirectly responsible, I instead of directly responsible, for the sins we commit? Satan cannot compel us to sin. How does God’s withdrawing His protection fit in with these insights? What role does it play? Especially as it relates to the results?

CC 110
However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel anyone to do evil. Satan attacks us at our weak points, but we need not be overcome. However severe or unexpected the assault, God has provided help for us, and in His strength we may conquer. {CC 110.4}


There you go again, Tom. “No” is an insufficient answer. It forces me ask the question again in a way that forces you to answer it. Instead of answering monosyllabically, please spell it out clearly. “No” implies neither God nor Satan directly or indirectly caused theses two things to happen. Who or what caused them to happen? What happened that caused them to happen?


Tom, it is you, not the Bible or the SOP, that has concluded every story of death and destruction in the Bible must be made to fit within the description given of Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 AD. But it doesn’t fit, right? Even you agreed. God destroyed Jerusalem and killed hundreds of Jews by withdrawing His protection and giving angel angels permission to use Roman soldiers to kill and destroy sinners and structures.

Obviously, this isn’t the only means and methods God has employed to accomplish His purposes. We cannot apply this to all the stories of death and destruction recorded in the Bible. “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” This insight cannot be forced to mean holy angels withdraw their protection and give evil angels permission to cause death and destruction.

At any rate, of the hundreds of places in the Bible where it says God caused the death and destruction of sinners and structures – Who or what is responsible for causing them to happen?

In the case of Korah and the 250 that died:

1. To who or what do you attribute these judgments? Who or what caused A) the earth to open up and swallow Korah and his clan, and B) fire from the divine glory in the cloud above the tabernacle to flash forth and kill the 250?

First of all, the insight is not mine. Second of all, I disagree that it raises more questions than it answers. It's a fine insight that EGW has given us.



This is the issue. Is the punishment of sin something inflicted by God, or the result of Satan's invention?



In that he invented the principle of sin. Without Satan, there would be no sin (unless someone else invented it).



In the way that any author is the author of something he authored. He invented it. He created it.



All results. The quote says "and all its results."



Satan. The authorship took place well before we were born.



This question is a bit open-ended, which is OK. I'll respond to one aspect. You'll notice the DA quote says that Satan had led people to view punishment as something arbitrarily inflicted by God

Sin and all its results (e.g. its punishments, as specified in the DA 471 quote) come from Satan. To put it another way, the principle which Satan invented (the love of self, sin) results in the suffering, misery and pain we see, as opposed to God's being upset because someone has sinned and arbitrarily punishing them for it.

How this ties into God's withdrawing His protection is that God often protects us from the results of sin/Satan. For example:



Sometimes God withdraws His protection, and these dangers, which are the result of sin/Satan, come to pass. The results are not due's to God's being upset and getting revenge upon those who don't do what He says, but due to sin/Satan.

There are two roads. One which is of God, which is the road of love. Another is the road Satan invented. Satan has claimed the his road is the right one, that it's end is joy and life. God says it's end is suffering and death. Now if God arbitrarily (that is, by imposing His will) causes suffering and death upon those who chose the road of Satan's invention, that would hardly be fair to Satan, would it? He would just say there is nothing wrong with the road he invented, if it weren't for God.