You gave the "jeez example" to prove people are born again with unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified sinful habits, that the Holy Spirit waits to draw their attention to this sin until they are ready to confront it.

That's funny you're accusing me of being black and white. My friends would laugh their heads off if they heard you say that. I guess that's the difference between knowing someone online versus knowing them in person.

At any rate, the Bible is crystal clear about it - We will not and cannot commit a known sin while actively abiding in Jesus. We are either all of His and free of sin or none of His and full of sin. That's how God views it. The Bible and SOP testify to it over and over again.

Psalms
37:31 The law of his God [is] in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

Romans
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Why don't you like classifying it this way? How do you classify the sinful habits the Holy Spirit waits to reveal to people until after they are born again? If He hasn't revealed it to them, how can they confess and crucify it?

Actually, Peter was aware of his sin. The following passage makes it clear that he was aware of the light and acted in accordance with it. His "weakness" was acting a "double part", not that he didn't know being prejudiced against Gentiles was a sin. He knew dissembling was wrong. God had revealed it to him.

He was aware of this sin "at a later date", after having received "the light given from heaven" in the episode with Cornelius. Before this he obviously wasn't aware of this sin.

"This vision [of the sheet] conveyed to Peter both reproof and instruction. It revealed to him the purpose of God--that by the death of Christ the Gentiles should be made fellow heirs with the Jews to the blessings of salvation. As yet none of the disciples had preached the gospel to the Gentiles. In their minds the middle wall of partition, broken down by the death of Christ, still existed, and their labors had been confined to the Jews, for they had looked upon the Gentiles as excluded from the blessings of the gospel. Now the Lord was seeking to teach Peter the world-wide extent of the divine plan. ... How carefully the Lord worked to overcome the prejudice against the Gentiles that had been so firmly fixed in Peter's mind by his Jewish training! By the vision of the sheet and its contents He sought to divest the apostle's mind of this prejudice and to teach the important truth that in heaven there is no respect of persons; that Jew and Gentile are alike precious in God's sight; that through Christ the heathen may be made partakers of the blessings and privileges of the gospel." {AA 135, 136}

These are your words, not mine. I am pointing out problems I see with your theory. I'm still not seeing what problem you have with this example.



John also "plainly states" that a person born of God "cannot sin," yet you state that John is not teaching that a born again person is incapable of sinning. You're being arbitrary in how you are applying Scripture. In one place you defend your theory because this is what John "plainly states," but in another, just 3 verses removed, you assert the reverse of what John "plainly states."

The difficult comes about in trying to force John into a theory that he doesn't have and doesn't address.

To know how one is born again is simple. Just look at what Jesus said to Nicodemus. As EGW points out, this was Jesus' most complete explanation of this subject.



To be born again one need simply respond to the Holy Spirit, repent, and receive Christ as one's personal Savior. That's it!



Because it's not identifying man's problem in a useful way. Piggybacking on Rosangela's idea, man's problem is that he doesn't love. Man needs to obtain "sanctified affection" for others, as opposed to his love for self. How does this happen? By beholding we become changed.

If one has this frame of mind, one's burden becomes to tell others about Christ, and to learn of Him. If our focus is on the classification of sins, then that becomes what we focus on and talk about.



I would classify these as sinful habits a person is unaware of.



Why is this important?

I see what you mean Rosangela, but are you citing this as example of an unrevealed, confessed, uncrucified sinful habit that people nowadays are born again with? In other words, does the Holy Spirit nowadays wait to reveal this sinful habit until sometime after people are born again?

Tom, are people born again with certain sinful habits in tact? And, does the Holy Spirit wait until after they are born again to bring them to their attention? So far you haven't answered this question plainly. Please do so. Thank you.


You seem to think “doth not sin” and “cannot sin” emphatically means people lose the freedom and ability to sin after they are born of God. Why do you interpret it this way? Upon what precedence do you conclude this way?


What do you mean by “repent”? What does repentance entail, involve, include? What is not involved? What do you think? In the middle of the chapter “Repentance”, in the book Steps to Christ, we find this description:

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

You, on the other hand, have been advocating the Holy Spirit does not make “every” defective trait of character painfully distinct. You seem to believe the Holy Spirit waits until after they are born again to lay bare certain defective aspects of their character, that He carefully avoids making it a painful process of revelation for them.


Why, indeed! The answer is as important as the question – Because Jesus will not change our defective traits of character when He returns. So, the Holy Spirit is culpable if He does as you say, namely, that He waits to reveal certain sinful habits until after they are born again - keeping in mind that a person is ready to be translated alive the instant they experience the miracle of rebirth. If they retain certain sinful habits after rebirth - because the Holy Spirit didn’t reveal them - then, indeed, He is culpable. Thankfully, though, the truth is quite the opposite.

Here’s how it is described in the SOP:


Each one of these quotes teach that people who experience genuine conversion, in God's appointed way, are born again without their former sinful habits. The Holy Spirit does not wait until sometime after they are born again to reveal certain sinful practices. Even though it may be "painful" He makes them aware of each sinful trait of character as the hideous thing it is - then they are reborn.

SD 300
The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

If by "certain sinful habits" you mean things like polygamy, saying "jeez" or "darn," or the example Rosangela gave of prejudice, then it's clear these things are not revealed when one is born again, isn't it? The whole concept that you have that it's possible that God could reveal every sinful habit before one is born again I find incomprehensible. We're just not that smart, MM. Our brains do not have this kind of capacity. It seems to me you are vastly underestimating our sinfulness. I'm repeatedly stated this, MM.

When we are born again, we *being* the process of healing. We start a walk with God. It is our desire to please God, and He begins to teach us what things are pleasing to Him.

I've also stated this many times.



What I'm commenting on is your inconsistency, MM. You have a theory in regards to abiding in Jesus which you claim is based on believing what John "plainly states." When people question you on this theory, you defend it by saying that you believe what John "plainly states," yet when John plainly states that a person born of God "does not sin" and "cannot sin" you interpret John's meaning to be other than what he "plainly states."

I'm not offering an interpretation here, MM. Just pointing out that you are not being consistent with your methodology.



"Repentance" comes from the two Greek words, "meta" and "noya" which mean "after" and "mind" resp. The idea is that before you repent, you thought one way. Now, after repenting, you think another way. That's what the concept "after mind" conveys; a change of mind.

Before knowing Christ, we were enemies of God. By Christ, we are brought into harmony with God, and the enmity is set aside. Instead of working at cross purposes with God, we work in harmony with Him.

Regarding the SC quote, immediately before what you cite it says this:



The context is speaking of the sinner recognizing his need for Christ.



I haven't been advocating this. I've been advocating that your views are incorrect. Please states things this way. Like this:



I believe your view of conversion is inaccurate. I think you vastly underestimate the damage that sin has caused to us and how much healing we need. It appears you believe that we are completely healed the moment we are born again. I don't believe this. I believe the healing *starts* when we are born again.

When we are born again, we begin a new path. We start forsaking the road of self, and start to walk to the road of agape. We operate under the guidance of a new Spirit. A new life beings, a new path. Our healing begins. This is how I see things.



I don't even think in these terms, MM. I think in the terms I've been laying out. Our problem is that we have not known God. When we are pardoned, we start a path of knowing God, which is also the beginning of our path to know ourselves. When we know ourselves, we will say, as Paul did, that it is a faithful saying that Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.



I don't think in these terms at all. You speak of the Holy Spirit being culpable, as if our inabilities and difficulties had nothing to do with the matter, as if God could arbitrarily heal us without our having any cooperation in the matter.

A great deal of our difficulties have to do with our misunderstanding of God. Satan has been very successful in presenting God as such a one as himself, one who seeks for His own glory, one who uses force to get His way, etc.; in short, as one who is not trustworthy.

The final message is one of God's character, His character of love. It is when His true character is fully known that full healing can take place. When His character is understood, then the mission of the 144,000 will take place.

When Christ's character is reproduced in His people, then He will come. But how can His character be reproduced if it is not known? It is by beholding that we become changed.

Therefore the emphasis needs to be on God's character; His compassion, His mercy, His kindness, His goodness. It is these things that lead us to repentance and transformation, and to victory over sin.



It's simply not the case that born again people are perfect and never sin. Not all born again people, for example, keep the Sabbath.

I have not read this thread so I have no knowledge of what you have previously said, but I have been reading a story that fits the thread topic. Therefore I post the link: http://darklightstory.wordpress.com/

The story is found in the word/pdf documents linked to at the top of the page.