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Re: The truth about the fall
#9941
09/12/03 04:09 AM
09/12/03 04:09 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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My faith in Jesus is based on the word of God -the Holy Bible. Without the word of God how lost we would be!
Romans
10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
John
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John
8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Matthew
22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Luke
24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Acts
18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publicly, showing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
Romans
15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
2 Timothy
3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9942
09/12/03 12:11 PM
09/12/03 12:11 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
My faith in Jesus is based on the word of God -the Holy Bible. Without the word of God how lost we would be!
Mike, this is where you err, by equating the Bible to "the word of God." The Bible first came to us in 1250BC, or thereabouts. Surely you would not suggest that for that period prior to that man was without the word of God. Certainly not.
There is not doubt that the Bible constitutes the most reliable information about God that we can share with others, but is not the only information we can bear. Paul, whose opinions have molded Christian thought, does not agree with your assessment that we would be lost without the Bible. "When the heathen which have not the law do by nature the things contained in the law it is counted . . . " You get the drift. God speaks to us in a multitude of ways and each medium is affected by the inadequacies of human frailty.
It is surprising that at the same time that individuals would elevate the Bible to a state of infallibility they will also pretend that certain passages written therein are not there.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9943
09/12/03 12:32 PM
09/12/03 12:32 PM
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What is now being discussed, though related, is not about the infallibility or non-infallibility of the Bible. It is on the truth about the fall, however, I may add that if we can't trust the inspiration of the Scriptures in determining truth, then where can we find truth, particularly the truth about the fall which is the title of this topic?
There already is a topic on the Bible in the Bible Evidence forum, therefore, if you want to continue discussing the Bible itself, please continue your discussion on the Bible itself there.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9944
09/12/03 01:22 PM
09/12/03 01:22 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
What is now being discussed, though related, is not about the infallibility or non-infallibility of the Bible. It is on the truth about the fall, however, I may add that if we can't trust the inspiration of the Scriptures in determining truth, then where can we find truth, particularly the truth about the fall which is the title of this topic?
Thanks, Daryl. The question is whether the accurate account of the fall is to be found in what Moses wrote or in EGW's commentary. I am suggesting that we have been deluded into ignoring important parts of Moses' record, and EGW's commentary merely builds on that delusion by suggesting that Moses forgot to indicate that God told Eve personally. The attention to detail in the biblical record is to great for us to conclude that Moses left out such a significant aspect. (It is significant because it affects the message in the story.)
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9945
09/12/03 03:19 PM
09/12/03 03:19 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 213
Alabama
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Not to mention that the prevailing belief in EGW's time was that Eve wandered away.... That theme is detailed in John Milton's "Paradise Lost" I believe.....
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9946
09/13/03 03:06 PM
09/13/03 03:06 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The word of God - whether oral or written - has existed from eternity. Without it we must all perish. The great controversy cannot come to a successful conclusion without the infallible word of God - the Holy Bible. Anybody who believes otherwise is on dangerous ground.
It was Eve who said that God told her she couldn't eat the forbidden fruit. The inspired details are clear and accurately recorded by Moses and elaborated upon by God through Sister White. Please note the facts:
Genesis
3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Satan questioned whether it was true and Eve confirmed that it was. "God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it." Speaking of herself Eve affirmed that God said "Ye" - meaning Eve herself - "shall not eat of it." I don't know how it could be stated any clearer!
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9947
09/13/03 04:42 PM
09/13/03 04:42 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 213
Alabama
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Mike wrote, "The word of God - whether oral or written - has existed from eternity. Without it we must all perish. The great controversy cannot come to a successful conclusion without the infallible word of God - the Holy Bible. Anybody who believes otherwise is on dangerous ground."
Mike, how did you arrive at this conclusion? I am not trying to be contrary, however don't you think that God being the person He is could save us if nothing had ever been written about Him?
Before the bible came to be, what did people have? What was it that allowed Enoch to walk with God into heaven, or Noah to build the ark?
The bible (in my opinion) is not holy, but it does point us to a holy God. There is a difference, a difference which keeps us from bibliodolatry....
Lastly, the successful conclusion of the great controversy does not rest on the bible but on the fact that Jesus, God's solution for the sin problem was complete...
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9948
09/13/03 08:20 PM
09/13/03 08:20 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
It was Eve who said that God told her she couldn't eat the forbidden fruit. The inspired details are clear and accurately recorded by Moses and elaborated upon by God through Sister White. Please note the facts:
Genesis
3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Satan questioned whether it was true and Eve confirmed that it was. "God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it." Speaking of herself Eve affirmed that God said "Ye" - meaning Eve herself - "shall not eat of it." I don't know how it could be stated any clearer!
Mike, how can you be so blind that you do not see? Lucifer questioned a lie. He did not question the truth. Eve did not say God told her anything. Lucifer's question presupposed that God had said something. To whom it had been told was not at issue. Eve simply stated what she believed God had said.
Just today I was discussing this with a fellow pastor and I concluded that EGW was wrong on this issue. He said it was refreshing to hear me say that because he had had discussions with other SDA pastors who had plainly stated that if they were shown one thing in the Bible and found that EGW said something different they would prefer to go with what EGW said. I sense you are on the cusp on that group. It is dangerous when we implicitly make EGW infallible.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9949
09/13/03 08:51 PM
09/13/03 08:51 PM
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As long as it doesn't contradict the Bible, I don't have any problem with what EGW says. It seems to me to make more sense that Eve was alone when the serpent was speaking to her for if Adam had also been there I am certain that the conversation would have included Adam. I arrive at this conclusion from the following: quote:
Genesis 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Notice that the serpent beguiled Eve, not Adam and Eve, and that Eve gave to Adam of the tree.
If Adam had been there at that tree with Eve, do you think he would have been silent while the serpent beguiled Eve?
Now as far as whether or not God told Eve not to eat of the fruit on the forbidden tree, I read the following:
quote:
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
It is obvious to me that Eve wasn't yet created when God told Adam, the man, not to eat from the forbidden tree, therefore, the Bible is silent on whether or not God also told Eve the same thing after He created Eve. I wouldn't be surprised that Adam told Eve what God had told him pertaining to the warning and consequences regarding this tree.
The warning was given to both. Whether or not Adam or god passed the warning on to Eve is irrelevant as both were warned!
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9950
09/14/03 12:33 AM
09/14/03 12:33 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Darryl, yours is a sensible approach. If Adam had been right next to Eve he would not have kept silent. The problem is that Eve erred by "straying" from her husband. That would mean she did wrong before she even ate of the tree. It seems likely that they were in different parts of the gardent and there was nothing wrong with that.
I agree with your analysis that Adam told Eve what God had told him. Why he would is important. He realized the significance of the fact that God had not simply created a mate for him but had extracted her from him so that she was a part of him, not just his partner.
What bothers me in this discussion is Mike's refusal to accept that EGW could possibly be in error when she ignores the precision of Moses' account.
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