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Re: The truth about the fall
#9951
09/15/03 08:22 PM
09/15/03 08:22 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Daryl, please read the EGW statements below. Would you agree that she believed God warned both Adam and Eve at some point? If so, then do you agree with Darius that she got it wrong?
"The Lord created every tree in Eden pleasant to the eyes and good for food, and He bade Adam and Eve freely enjoy His bounties. But He made one exception. Of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they were not to eat. {6T 386.1}
"Eve had overstated the words of God's command. He had said to Adam and Eve, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." In Eve's controversy with the serpent, she added "Neither shall ye touch it." Here the subtlety of the serpent appeared. This statement of Eve gave him advantage; he plucked the fruit and placed it in her hand, using her own words, He hath said, If ye touch it, ye shall die. You see no harm comes to you from touching the fruit, neither will you receive any harm by eating it. {Con 14.2}
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9952
09/15/03 08:53 PM
09/15/03 08:53 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
In Eve's controversy with the serpent, she added "Neither shall ye touch it." Here the subtlety of the serpent appeared. This statement of Eve gave him advantage; he plucked the fruit and placed it in her hand, using her own words, He hath said, If ye touch it, ye shall die. You see no harm comes to you from touching the fruit, neither will you receive any harm by eating it. {Con 14.2}
This was not subtlety. Give me a break. Incidentally, this idea that the serpent then touched Eve with the fruit comes from the rabbis.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9953
09/16/03 02:33 AM
09/16/03 02:33 AM
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Then based on this verse, where was the subtlety of the devil speaking through the medium of ths serpent? I believe his advantage over Eve was in Eve's added reply to the serpent's question. quote:
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
I believe that EGW was given some added detail, and I accept that detail accordingly, especially where it doesn't contradict the Scriptural account.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9954
09/16/03 12:34 PM
09/16/03 12:34 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Daryl, this would mean that the Devil's subtlety depended on the nature of Eve's response. That's not subtlety. That's opportunism. The fact is that the subtlety was in his original thrust, and would have worked regardless of how Eve responded. The goal was deception. We don't always have to fall for deception, however. This is why the Bible continually warns us against deception. Sadly, as this thread indicates, many Christians labor under self-deception accepting as true what is really false.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9955
09/16/03 12:50 PM
09/16/03 12:50 PM
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"That's not subtlety. That's opportunism."
Yes, opportunism for subtlety.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9956
09/16/03 12:52 PM
09/16/03 12:52 PM
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"Sadly, as this thread indicates, many Christians labor under self-deception accepting as true what is really false."
What is being accepted as truth in this topic that is obviously or really false?
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9957
09/16/03 02:03 PM
09/16/03 02:03 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
What is being accepted as truth in this topic that is obviously or really false?
Not obviously. It it were obvious it would not be deception. The general approach to theology is that what has been settled by the early church fathers is beyond question. We accept their view that God created the earth out of nothing. That is easily proven to be untrue but Christians will not pursue it because it is considered to be unassailable. Then there is the notion that EGW is qualified to be an infallible interpreter of the Bible so that the Bible has to be interpreted to agree with what she says about it. These are just two examples.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9958
09/16/03 06:07 PM
09/16/03 06:07 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Daryl, I didn't read where you answered my question at the bottom of page 5. Do agree with Darius that Sister White got it wrong when she wrote that God warned both Adam and Eve not to eat the foridden fruit.
"The Lord created every tree in Eden pleasant to the eyes and good for food, and He bade Adam and Eve freely enjoy His bounties. But He made one exception. Of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they were not to eat. {6T 386.1}
"He had said to Adam and Eve, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." {Con 14.2}
Darius, the devil didn't question whether or not God warned Eve personally, instead his deception involved getting her to eat the fruit God warned her not to eat.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9959
09/16/03 06:20 PM
09/16/03 06:20 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Mike, I see you insist on believing that God either forgot to reveal to Moses such a simple fact that He had in fact told Eve, or Moses deliberately refused to insert that tidbit into his account. You are yet to explain why God would tell Adam alone then tell them both after Eve was created. I can see how important EGW is to you so I'll leave it there.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9960
09/16/03 07:32 PM
09/16/03 07:32 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Eve was perfectly aware of God's prohibition. Her guilt is no less or more than Adam's. Both knew they weren't supposed to eat the fruit. Satan's deception involved getting her to eat the fruit. Her response to his question indicates she knew full well she wasn't supposed to eat the fruit. She ate the fruit when she realized touching it did not kill her. Then she gave it to Adam who ate it knowing he would die with her. These are the facts about the fall of our first parents.
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