Mike,

This is what I believe happens:

"Self--the old disobedient nature--must be crucified, and Christ must take up His abode in the heart. Thus the human agent is born again, with a new nature. The newborn child of God begins to have some conception of what God is. To all intents and purposes, truth is truth to him. He has caught a glimpse of God's glory. A sense of his accountability to God quenches the unholy ambition that keeps upon the soul a galling yoke of guilt. The light in which he enters is softened and subdued, tempered to suit his condition. By daily beholding Jesus and striving to practise His virtues, his spiritual perceptions grow clearer and stronger." {ST, July 26, 1905 par. 6}

Just like in Plato's analogy of the cave, it is impossible to come from a dark place where you lived for a long time, and immediately contemplate full light. You first have to accustom your eyes to light. The sun is shining in all his glory, but you are able to open your eyes just partially. This is what happens to us. It's not that the Holy Spirit waits to reveal some sins, but that our minds cannot discern all the sins the Holy Spirit is trying to reveal to us. This is a gradual process. As Ellen White says, as we daily behold Jesus, our spiritual perceptions grow clearer. As we see God more clearly, we also see more clearly the contrast between His ways and ours.

Well said Rosangela. I agreed with all your points. These two I think are especially on point for this discussion.

1.It's not that the Holy Spirit waits to reveal some sins, but that our minds cannot discern all the sins the Holy Spirit is trying to reveal to us.
2.This is a gradual process.

Thank you, Tom, for plainly answering my question. Now I understand what you mean be rebirth. You have in mind someone whom the Holy Spirit waits to reveal certain sins of ignorance, like the ones you named above, until after they are born again.

If they should die before they get the chance to confess and crucify these kinds of sins, will they learn about them en route to heaven? Or, can they be translated alive before they confess and crucify them here?

Rosangela, thank you for sharing what you believe about it. You seem to be saying the following passages contradict one another, that the one says we are born again will all manner sins which must gradually be revealed and crucified, whereas the other one clearly says one ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.

ST 7-26-05
Self--the old disobedient nature--must be crucified, and Christ must take up His abode in the heart. Thus the human agent is born again, with a new nature. The newborn child of God begins to have some conception of what God is. To all intents and purposes, truth is truth to him. He has caught a glimpse of God's glory. A sense of his accountability to God quenches the unholy ambition that keeps upon the soul a galling yoke of guilt. The light in which he enters is softened and subdued, tempered to suit his condition. By daily beholding Jesus and striving to practise His virtues, his spiritual perceptions grow clearer and stronger. {ST, July 26, 1905 par. 6}

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Let's take a closer look at the quote Rosangela posted:

1. "Self--the old disobedient nature--must be crucified, and Christ must take up His abode in the heart. Thus the human agent is born again, with a new nature." Does this mean we are born again ignorantly disobedient? Does it mean are born again with certain known sins uncrucified?

2. "The newborn child of God begins to have some conception of what God is. To all intents and purposes, truth is truth to him. He has caught a glimpse of God's glory." Does this mean we are born again committing some of the same sins we committed before rebirth?

3. "A sense of his accountability to God quenches the unholy ambition that keeps upon the soul a galling yoke of guilt." Does mean we are born again ignorant of certain unholy ambitions?

4. "The light in which he enters is softened and subdued, tempered to suit his condition." Does this mean we are born again ignorant of certain truths which might prevent us from committing some of the same sins we committed before rebirth?

5. "By daily beholding Jesus and striving to practice His virtues, his spiritual perceptions grow clearer and stronger." Does this mean we are born again committing some of the same sins we committed before rebirth?

Finally, in light of the questions posted above, how should we interpret the following passages:

SD 300
The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

COL 99
Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God's word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character. {COL 99.1}

3T 345
I lift my voice of warning to all who name the name of Christ to depart from all iniquity. Purify your souls by obeying the truth. Cleanse yourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. You to whom this applies know what I mean. (3T 345)

OHC 336
Many are sensible of their great deficiency, and they read, and pray, and resolve, and yet make no progress. They seem to be powerless to resist temptation. The reason is, they do not go deep enough. They do not seek for a thorough conversion of the soul, that the streams which issue from it may be pure, and the deportment may testify that Christ reigns within. All defects of character originate in the heart. Pride, vanity, evil temper, and covetousness proceed from the carnal heart unrenewed by the grace of Christ. If the heart is refined, softened, and ennobled, the words and actions will testify to the fact. When the soul has been entirely surrendered to God, there will be a firm reliance upon His promises, and earnest prayer and determined effort to control the words and actions. (OHC 336)

MM, I asked you a question here. You didn't respond to my question.



My understanding of rebirth is based on my own experience, and the witness of the Holy Spirit, and is born out the testimony of Scripture, as well as the writings of Ellen White. I know exactly when I was born again, and I know precisely when it happened, and remember well what happened. As John says:



The experience of the new birth was plainly taught by Jesus Christ in His meeting with Nicodemus.



The SOP comments:





Do you disagree? Is it your contention that no one who is born again has ever said "Jeez"? Is it your contention that no one who is born again has had more than one wife? Is it your contention that no one who is born again has not kept the Sabbath? Is it your contention that no one who is born again has had the type of prejudice to which Rosangela alluded?



I'll await your response to my question above (the one I pointed out you didn't answer), and then respond.

The thing that is clear to me is you believe these examples represent the types of sins that the Holy Spirit waits to reveal to people nowadays until sometime after they are reborn.

The thing that is not clear to me is the idea that God still winks at polygamy, that He waits to reveal this sin to people until sometime after they are born again. The other examples you gave, “jeez” and “darn”, no longer mean what they used to mean; thus, I doubt they are still considered sins nowadays. Similar principles apply here that apply to Christmas and Easter. In other words, we no longer view them as sins even though their origins are steeped in sin. Times change, people change. That is reality.


Yes, Tom, it is clear to me that you apply these passages and principles to people nowadays who are born again and still practice polygamy and harbor hateful, prejudicial thoughts and feelings toward certain classes and races of people. You believe God still winks at these types of sin nowadays, that He waits to reveal them until sometime after they are born again.


In addition to what I wrote above, I have at other times made it clear I believe God makes a distinction between sins of ignorance and cultivated traits of character. Ignorantly breaking the Sabbath falls into the category of sins of ignorance, and, yes, God still waits nowadays to reveal this sin in many cases until sometime after people are born again.

But God never waits to reveal known cultivated sinful traits and habits. He always draws their attention to them during the process that leads to rebirth. He presents them in light of the cross, and people are painfully aware of their sinfulness, and what their sins and habits have done to Jesus. No cultivated trait or habit is overlooked, or set aside until sometime after they are born again.

You and I both agree the Holy Spirit does not wait to reveal sinful traits and habits that are offensive, that cause people watching them to conclude Christianity is a joke, right? Do we still agree on this point? Or, is your thoughts about polygamy an exception to this rule?


Okay.

They are still sins. That people don't consider them to be sins would be exactly my point. People are born again who do these things. This is what you asked for, and example of sins people commit that are unrevealed to them.



It's true that times change and people change, but sin is still sin. "Jeez" and "darn" are slang for "Jesus" and "damn" just as much as they were in 1928 or whenever it was they were invented.

Say a person is making a false deduction on their income tax, not realizing the law does not permit the deduction they are claiming. This would be an unrevealed sin, wouldn't it? Aren't there a million of examples like this? Things people do in ignorance, not realizing they are doing wrong? The proof of conversion comes on the basis of how one responds to light.



It seems that you could apply this logic to any sin which God reveals after a person is born again. If it is revealed after they are born again, then it is sin of ignorance. How could such a theory possibly be disproved?



You assert this, but there's no way to disprove this idea, right? Any example that one could give you could just say is a sin of ignorance.



I don't see how your theory can either be proven or disproved. Any item which doesn't fit gets classified into an item which does.

I know what happened when I was born again, I see what Jesus said to Nicodemus, I see what EGW wrote about it in "Nicodemus," I've read Waggoner's experiences as well, as well as Luther, Wesley, and others, and am convinced that these all agree in regards to what being born again consists of.



Look and live. Simple!

Mike, they in no way contradict each other. Sin is multifaceted. The human mind cannot in a short time know all the evil that lurks in its own recesses. So one ray of the glory of God lays bare all the defects of the human character that the mind can apprehend at that moment.

“He [the sinner] becomes reconciled to God through the blood of Christ, and as he continues to walk with Him he will be gaining a clearer sense of the holiness of God's character and the far-reaching nature of His requirements. He will see more clearly his own defects and will feel the need of continual repentance and faith in the blood of Christ.” {FW 53.4}

“There is no such thing as an instantaneous sanctification. It is an every-day work. Says Paul, ‘I die daily’ (1 Cor. 15:31). He received a conversion daily to God. As the truth and Spirit of God revealed to him the defects in his character, he put away his wrong, died to self, and cleansed himself ‘from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God’ (2 Cor. 7:1).” {UL 231.3}

I agree with this, and this is well put. I like the cave analogy too.