TE: I'm talking about who is destroying people. In the end of time, Satan and God (according to your idea) will both be destroying people (unless you think Satan all of a sudden stops being like himself), so there will be no way of knowing, based on their actions, who is doing what. Actually, this isn't unique to the end of time. According to how you view things, you never have a way of knowing whether it is God or Satan who is destroying someone, do you?

MM: Not so. Evil angels have control of the fierce passions of the wicked while holy angels pour out the 7LPs. The distinction is clear. Satan doesn't seek to destroy the wicked; instead, he employs them to hunt down and attempt to kill the righteous.


Do you see the two different roles evil and holy angels play during the final crisis?

This doesn't agree with the following statement:



Regarding your other question:



Notice it says that "if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of." What happens when the angels release, as Rev. speaks of? We will see these "more terrible manifestations of his power."

You see Satan as sometimes destroying, and as God sometimes doing so. Sometimes Satan uses force as a last resort, and sometimes God does. Sometimes Satan utilizes violence, and sometimes God does. Sometimes God's judgments come as described here "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection." but sometimes not. I see this statement as explaining the general principle involved, not as a special case.

I see that sin results in terrible ways, except for God's grace. I don't God as doing the terrible things that sin results in Himself. I seem many problems with this idea. For example, if God does these things Himself, then it wouldn't be the result of sin. Satan could argue that sin would be OK if God didn't punish it. This is a big problem.

Another problem is that it makes God's character to be like Satan's. They both do the same things, and we have no way of knowing which is which. When people are destroyed, who is doing it, God or Satan? Apart from some special revelation of God, who knows?

Another problem is that it makes God's character to be different from Jesus'. Jesus was non-violent.

Another problem is it puts the lie to EGW's statement that all that man needs to know or can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son.

Another problem is that it implies that force and violence are inherent to God's government, and thus to His character.

Another problem is that it implies that God had to adjust His government and principles to deal with sin, since surely force and violence were not a part of His government or principles before sin came about.

Yes, of course, Satan will kill some and employ others. He will do whatever God gives him permission to do - no more, no less. He must think God is pretty crazy or reckless to give him permission to do anything at all.


True.


This not at all how I understand it, Tom. God never uses force, and He never uses violence. When God uses the forces of nature to punish and destroy impenitent sinners He is not employing force or violence. Even when God uses His enemies or gives evil angels permission to destroy impenitent sinners God is not indirectly using force or violence.

"God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}

Also, when God commands holy angels to punish and destroy impenitent sinners He is not employing force or violence. There is nothing forceful or violent about the judgment of God. I know of no one, other than you, who reads the following insights and concludes holy angels destroy impenitent sinners by withdrawing and allowing evil angels to do it.

"God's judgments were awakened against Jericho. It was a stronghold. But the Captain of the Lord's host Himself came from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in an attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground.--3T 264 (1873). {LDE 243.1}

"Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.--DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}

"The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber. It was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God.--AA 152 (1911). {LDE 243.3}

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.--GC 614 (1911). {LDE 243.4}


You have already admitted that it doesn't apply across the board. Not every story of destruction in the Bible can be explained in these terms. For example, in the following quotes she does not, as you do, attribute to Satan the judgments of God. "... they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan... It was this act that sealed their doom." (PP 405) Are you not doing the same thing?

"The Lord God of Israel is to execute judgment upon the gods of this world as upon the gods of Egypt. With fire and flood, plagues and earthquakes, He will spoil the whole land. Then His redeemed people will exalt His name and make it glorious in the earth. Shall not those who are living in the last remnant of this earth's history become intelligent in regard to God's lessons?--10MR 240, 241 (1899). {LDE 240.2}

"God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Ps. 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. . . . {LDE 240.5}

"In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {LDE 241.1}

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man.

"Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

"Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?--12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 241.3}

I don't have time to do your post justice right now, so I'll just make a quick comment and come back to it later.



This is violence.



This is force.

It seems clear to me that you believe God acts in accordance with these definitions. For example, sending fire to engulf someone is an act of agression with the intention of injuring, or killing, someone.

Tom, your understanding of force and violence does not apply to the wrath of God, to the "strange acts" of God. When God employs the forces of nature, or holy angels, or His enemies to punish and destroy impenitent sinners - He is not acting forcefully or violently as you define it.

As Shakespeare wrote, "What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;"

Where did I do this?

Regarding you're not knowing anyone who sees these things as I do, I know a number of people who do. If you walked in the same circles I do, you would too.

There's at least one other person on this forum right now who sees things as I do, and there have been several who have posted here in the past who also do, who are not posting right now.

And there is Jesus. He taught principles of non-violence, or, perhaps more accurate, anti-violence.

You agreed with me that the destruction of Jerusalem does not describe how God will punish and destroy resurrected sinners at the end of time. For example, God will not withdraw His protection and give evil angels permission to use human soldiers to kill sinners.

You still haven't explained how God will punish and destroy resurrected sinners at the end of time. From what you have said about it I gather you believe exposure to the truth and the unveiled glory of God is what causes them to suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness.

You also haven't provided an example of Jesus withdrawing His protection, while here in the flesh, and giving evil angels permission to punish and destroy sinners. Nor have you cited an example of Jesus causing people to suffer according to their sinfulness by exposing them to the truth and the unveiled glory of God.

On the contrary!



This fulfillment is precisely what you're asking about (the destruction of sinners in the final judgment). There's just one principle involved, MM. God gives people what they want (or choose, if you prefer). This is how His wrath is manifest.



I think you're missing the forest through the trees here. The point of similarity EGW is bringing out is that as the Jews forged there own fetters, and reaped what they had sown, so it will be with the wicked when they meet their end.



My, where have you been the last several years? I must have written well over a hundred pages on this.



Ok, that explains why you keep making the point you were making regarding the end of "The Great Controversy." That had me confused. I think you've got quite a different idea than what I have in mind.

I'm sure I've written out on this thread what I believe. Let me find the post # and I'll tell you what it is.

Looking for posts is even more tiring than rewriting something, so I'll do that instead.

This is DA 107:



This says that the glory of God (not literal fire) destroys the wicked.



This is a little later down the page. It says that the same thing that gives life to the righteous slays the wicked. What gives life to the righteous? The "light of the glory of God." What is that? Well, the glory of God is His character:



What is light? Light is revelation. Who revealed God's character? Jesus Christ. Notice how well this fits together as we consider the very next sentence from DA:



There it is! Jesus Christ, the light of the glory of God. The same revelation which gives life to the righteous slays the wicked.

Going on:



I think if we concentrate on the fact that the same thing that gives life to the righteous slays the wicked, and get this point, that opens the understanding to what destroys the wicked.

Another passage I've quoted many times is DA 764. This brings out that the destruction of the wicked is due to their own choice, as opposed to something God arbitrarily does to them.

The other passage I've quoted a lot in regards to the discussion of the wicked is GC 541-543. This brings out that the destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice, and their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves.