But if knowing about Jesus' revelation of God's character before He died on the cross was sufficient to take Enoch, Moses, and Elijah to heaven, sufficient for them to feel secure and unafraid of God, why did Jesus actually have to die on the cross?

Also, were holy angels and unfallen beings less secure than Enoch, Moses, and Elijah before Jesus actually died on the cross?

The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God. (5 SDABC 1132)

The same question could be asked of us. We never actually saw Jesus die on a cross. The Holy Spirit communicates Christ to us. He could do that without Christ's actually dying on the cross, couldn't He?



Here's a statement that speaks to this:

If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

why wasn't it sufficient to safeguard the holy angles and unfallen beings?

Why did they have to wait until after Jesus actually died on the cross? The point I'm hoping to arrive at is that the death of Jesus accomplished more than merely convincing the loyal angels that their faith in Jesus was not misplaced.

The same question could be asked of us. We never actually saw Jesus die on a cross. The Holy Spirit communicates Christ to us. He could do that without Christ's actually dying on the cross, couldn't He?

Why are you making this assumption?

That's not much of a point. Of course it did more than that.

I asked you this question:



Your response?

MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

MM: Why wasn't it sufficient to safeguard the holy angles and unfallen beings?

Why did they have to wait until after Jesus actually died on the cross? The point I'm hoping to arrive at is that the death of Jesus accomplished more than merely convincing the loyal angels that their faith in Jesus was not misplaced.

TE:That's not much of a point. Of course it did more than that.

MM:The point is the angels were already secure in their faith in Jesus' law and love *before* He lived and died as a man. So, the question is - Why did Jesus have to live and die the perfect life and death? What did it accomplish?

To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (DA 758)

TE:The same question could be asked of us. We never actually saw Jesus die on a cross. The Holy Spirit communicates Christ to us. He could do that without Christ's actually dying on the cross, couldn't He?

MM:Apparently so. It worked for the angels; it worked for Enoch, Moses, and Elijah; why wouldn't it have worked for us? What would have happened if no one had sinned after A&E? What manner of death would Jesus have had to die to atone for the two sins of A&E?

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)

MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

TE: So do we.

MM: Why wasn't it sufficient to safeguard the holy angels and unfallen beings?

Why did they have to wait until after Jesus actually died on the cross? The point I'm hoping to arrive at is that the death of Jesus accomplished more than merely convincing the loyal angels that their faith in Jesus was not misplaced.

TE:That's not much of a point. Of course it did more than that.

MM:The point is the angels were already secure in their faith in Jesus' law and love *before* He lived and died as a man. So, the question is - Why did Jesus have to live and die the perfect life and death? What did it accomplish?

TE: As already cited from DA:



I don't understand how this isn't answering your question. Please note the "not until" part.

TE:The same question could be asked of us. We never actually saw Jesus die on a cross. The Holy Spirit communicates Christ to us. He could do that without Christ's actually dying on the cross, couldn't He?

MM:Apparently so. It worked for the angels; it worked for Enoch, Moses, and Elijah; why wouldn't it have worked for us? What would have happened if no one had sinned after A&E? What manner of death would Jesus have had to die to atone for the two sins of A&E?

TE: The atonement has to do with setting us right with God. This could only be done by revealing God:



The way that God sets us right is by way of revelation. Christ revealed God in order to set us right. This was the "whole purpose" of His mission.

From the DA quote above, it was not until the death of Christ that the character of Satan was clearly seen by angels. So His death was necessary for them, as well as for us. As she explains elsewhere, apart from Christ's death, the universe would be no more secure than it was when Satan first leveled his accusations against God.

MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

TE: So do we.

So, do you agree with my assumption?

It doesn't address my question. It simply says the angels saw Satan unveiled. It doesn't explain why Jesus had to die. The point is - They were already secure in the law and love of God. They were serving Him faithfully and would have forever even Jesus had not died on the cross.

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds.

Obviously there is more to it, because the unfallen universe was already serving God faithfully and would have forever even if Jesus had not died on the cross. That's the point.

Nowhere does it say they would have rebelled against God if Jesus had not died on the cross.

Understanding why Satan deserves to die is helpful and needful, but it doesn't change the fact they were already secure in the law and love of God.

MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

TE: So do we.

MM: So, do you agree with my assumption?

TE: No, I was asking you a question to help you reason things out.

MM: It doesn't address my question. It simply says the angels saw Satan unveiled. It doesn't explain why Jesus had to die. The point is - They were already secure in the law and love of God. They were serving Him faithfully and would have forever even Jesus had not died on the cross.

TE: Again, I'm not understanding how you are not understanding the text.

MM: Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds.

TE: Satan's character wasn't clearly revealed until Christ's death. May I suggest you read the whole chapter. Look at how she applies Rev. 12:10. It wasn't until the cross that Satan was defeated. That's when he was cast down. He was defeated by Christ's death. The cross is what made the universe eternally secure. Without Christ's death, it would have been no more secure than it was when Satan first made his accusations. The issue wasn't that the angels weren't being faithfully serving God, but that Satan had raised doubts. These doubts were removed by the cross.

MM: Obviously there is more to it, because the unfallen universe was already serving God faithfully and would have forever even if Jesus had not died on the cross. That's the point.

TE: Not really. The point has to do with the Great Controversy, which was over the character of God, not over whether or not angels were faithfully serving God.

MM: Nowhere does it say they would have rebelled against God if Jesus had not died on the cross.

TE: DA 764 presents this as a possibility, where it speaks of the doubt that would have remained had God left Satan to reap the results of his sin.

MM: Understanding why Satan deserves to die is helpful and needful, but it doesn't change the fact they were already secure in the law and love of God.

TE: On what basis are you asserting they were secure? The SOP says the universe was *not* secure, until the death of Christ.

MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

TE: So do we.

MM: So, do you agree with my assumption?

TE: No, I was asking you a question to help you reason things out.

What is your point?

MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

TE: So do we.

Even before Satan was exposed at the cross, the holy angels were secure in the law and love of God.

They chose to love and serve God before the evil angels were cast out of heaven.

You seem to be saying their loyalties were tentative before the cross, that their security was conditional, dependent upon Satan's final downfall - as if they were saying, "We'll love and serve you for the time being, but if you cannot eventually disprove Satan's accusations, we're going to rebel, too." Is this what you believe?

The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God. (5SDABC 1132)

To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.

What if God had decided not to implement the plan of salvation? What would have happened to the loyal angels and loyal FMAs? Did God have to go through with the plan of salvation in order to prevent the loyal beings from rebelling, too?